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Thriceborn is our invented
Magic card set.
The idea arose in August 2008 as a spiritual successor
to both Inventica
and Ravnica.
GuildsThere are ten 3-colour 'guilds':
Each inventor only makes cards in the colours of his guild. So Loki will make the blue-black-red guild Ikol, and will only invent blue cards, black cards, red cards, and blue-black-red cards.
Hybrid mana
Casting costs can use the 2-colour hybrid mana symbols, such as
KeywordEach guild will have one keyword, which epitomises some common feature of that combination of three colours. In Ravnica, each two-colour guild had a keyword which belonged equally in both colours. We're aiming to do the same for the three-colour guilds in Thriceborn. (For some guilds, it's actually quite difficult to find a feature or ability which belongs equally in each of the three colours! But that's just part of the fun of the challenge.)
Number of cardsEach player will contribute 45 cards to the draft (equivalent of 3 boosters). But they needn't be 45 unique cards. Instead 18 to 20 unique cards are recommended:
Possible 10-card cycles
Discussions (2008)DMc and AS make the point that this [R/G][G/B][B/R] style makes a more interesting restriction, in that you need two out of the three colours of that guild to be able to play it (whereas all [R/G/B] allows any single guild to play it). Unfortunately, [R/G][G/B][B/R] is a trick you can only really pull (symmetrically) for 3+ casting costs. DMc also makes the point that each guild has a single colour which is 'special'. For the "contiguous" guilds, the central colour is an ally of the other two (but the other two are enemies of each other). For the "eclectic" guilds, there are two colours allied and one colour which is enemy of both. [I had another idea about slotting Purple into the mix as an ordinary mana colour, treating it like a Rubik's Cube and doing the 8 guilds on the corners (so opposite colours wouldn't appear in the same guild). Each colour would appear in 4 of the guilds = 50%. (In Thriceborn, each colour appears in 60% of the guilds; in Ravnica each colour appeared in 40% of the guilds.)] In Ravnica, blue-black's keyworded ability was Transmute, which was present on many mono-blue and mono-black cards, as well as on a few blue-black cards. The key question is whether a three-colour guild is balanced between all three colours, or symmetric around a central colour, or asymmetric (clockwise or anti-clockwise). I guess I'm arguing for the balanced option, to give each designer enough design space to stretch their legs in all three colours. I think practically, it's just a matter of saying "hey you, design a guild with the following three colours" and let 'em rip. But I do think some guidelines like 45 cards, equal numbers of each of the three colours, and relative rarities would be needed to make the thing balanced. DMc wrote: I think we should also agree on a few cycles (e.g. guildmages) to tie the whole thing together. I was also thinking that we should actually print multiples of the commons - probably 3 each of 11. That would mean that
Yes!
SI wrote: Well, that doesn't sound too hard then. As long as the schedule was fairly relaxed. We've got a fair few other projects to try first anyway, so I don't expect you meant soon. It might not be that bad an idea to preliminarily pick some guilds some time soon though even if we don't expect anything to happen soon - that way any idle thoughts we might have in the meantime are more likely to be useful. DMc wrote: Random cycle ideas, mostly "borrowed" from existing sets:
Guildmage (as per Ravnica) - Uncommon
[C/D][D/E][E/C]
Creature
nC: ability
nD: ability
nE: ability
3/3
(3/3 for 3 is beefy, but note that you have to pay at least two colours for it.)
Modal spell (as per Shadowmoor block) - Uncommon?
n[C/D/E]
Instant/Sorcery
Do X if C was spent to play CARDNAME.
Do Y if D was spent to play CARDNAME.
Do Z if E was spent to play CARDNAME.
Guild Leader (as per Ravnica) - Rare
nCDE
Legendary Creature
[Insanely good stats and abilities]
Multiland - Uncommon
Land
[Your choice of abilities capable of producing 3 colours of mana.
Not necessarily symmetrical in colours - e.g. Homelands multilands.]
Guild Mascot (as per Shadowmoor scarecrows) - Common?
3
Artifact Creature
CARDNAME has [ability] as long as you control a C creature.
CARDNAME has [ability] as long as you control a D creature.
CARDNAME has [ability] as long as you control a E creature.
2/2
Thoughts?
> Modal spell (as per Shadowmoor block) - Uncommon? n[C/D/E] Three-colour hybrid mana... weren't you arguing against this? DMc wrote: In general, yes, because it's too close to colourless. However, the modal spells depend on the colours you used to cast them, so they reward you for using the guild colours. In fact, that cycle of spells from Shadowmoor/Eventide (Batwing Brume is the one that comes to mind, because it's AWESOME) would have been functionally the same if they'd had colourless mana costs. There are a few good reasons that they didn't (there's no WotC precedent for colourless instants/sorceries (Ghostfire excluded); Shadowmoor block had lots of triggers from playing coloured spells; the colours on the card are a useful visual cue), but the point is that the ease of paying the mana cost doesn't matter when the effect itself depends on the colours you used. A Gatherer search for the phrase "was spent" brings up the similar Ravnica and Shadowmoor cycles in all their glory. There are some nice ideas there that we could reuse in structure without the individual cards feeling unoriginal: The more I think about it, the more complex three-colour guilds seem. It'd be all too easy to import all the Ravnica guilds into the set too, through injudicious use of casting costs like 1[C/D]. Instead, I feel we should be strict about using only one-colour and three-colour card backgrounds. E.g. only allow costs like:
DMc wrote: > Mono: nC (with or without abilities that rely on D and/or E) The "and/or" should probably be an "and" to avoid Ravnica guilds. There's a lot of design space in the area of: nC Creature Ability native to C D: CARDNAME gains [ability native to D] E: CARDNAME gains [ability native to E] AS wrote: Interesting you should mention this - there are some "Shards of Alara" spoilers out. The Jund and Naya battlemages are: nC Creature D,Tap: ability native to D E,Tap: ability native to EIt looks like they've got a bit of a three colour theme going, though it's mostly done through gold cards, and is entirely "friend" colours. DMc wrote: Now that I think about it, the Battlemage archetype was established in Planeshift... Meh. Nothing new under the sun and all that. :) DMM wrote: No real comments except to say that I'm on for designing a chunk. Now that I look at some spoilers about Alara, it seems they are doing the 'contiguous' three-colour guilds there (and maybe the 'eclectic' guilds in a later expansion??) Does this make Thriceborn still-born? I reckon it's still a rich design space to play in, and the purpose of "Inventica 2" is to have some fun group invention happening, so I personally don't care if Wizards are exploring the same space at the same time, because the guild format is just a convenient and interesting way to divide up the design space so that each player only designs for the 3 colours he most often plays. I also doubt that Wizards will do mixed [C/D][D/E] casting costs, but who knows, maybe they will? DMc wrote: It looks like they're doing a lot of allied colour cooperation, but I don't see a guild structure in the Ravnica sense - it just naturally leads to three- and two-colour gold, and mono with allied-colour abilities. I don't think it's prior art for Thriceborn any more than Legends made Ravnica unoriginal. Had more of a think about 'guildmages'. Currently, Ikol Guildmage is this:
Card Name: Ikol Guildmage (working title)
Color: Blue/Black/Red
Cost: [U/B][B/R][R/U]
Type: Creature --
Pow/Tgh: 3/3
Rules Text: 3U: Counter target activated or triggered ability.
(Mana abilities can't be countered.)
3B: Target creature loses all abilities until end of turn.
3R: Copy target activated or triggered ability.
You may choose new targets for the copy.
Flavor Text:
Rarity: Thriceborn Uncommon
The 3R ability is costed above the Izzet Guildmage's 2U/2R copy instant/sorcery ability. But Izzet's ability is even narrower: you must control the spell, and it must cost 2 or less. This makes me think copying is considered more powerful than countering... If I've costed these abilities too cheaply, I could:
Interestingly, both Ravnica and Mirage peg all Guildmage abilities on the one Guildmage at the same converted cost. That's why I've made the costs here 3U/3B/3R. Conceptually, a Guildmage is evenly split between the colours, and doesn't favour one or the other, which is why the power and converted cost of each ability should be the same. Here's a copy-and-paste of all the Ravnica and Mirage Guildmage abilities, by colour and cost: W, T: Target creature gains first strike until end of turn. 1W: Target creature gains first strike until end of turn. 2W: Tap target creature. 2W: Target player gains 1 life. 3W: Creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn. U, T: Put target creature you control on top of its owner's library. 1U: Attach target Aura enchanting a permanent to another permanent with the same controller. 2U: Counter target activated ability. (Mana abilities can't be targeted.) 2U: Copy target instant spell you control with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for the copy. 3U: Target player draws a card. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery. B, T: Target creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn. 2B: Each player loses 1 life. 3B, Discard a card: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn. 3B: Target player discards a card. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery. 4B, Sacrifice a creature: Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand. R, T: CARDNAME deals 1 damage to target creature or player and 1 damage to you. 1R: Target creature gains haste until end of turn. 2R: Copy target sorcery spell you control with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for the copy. 3R: Put a 2/1 red Goblin creature token with haste into play. Remove it from the game at end of turn. 3R, Sacrifice a land: CARDNAME deals 2 damage to target player. G, T: Target creature gets +0/+1 until end of turn. 1G: Move a +1/+1 counter from target creature onto another target creature with the same controller. 3G: Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. 3G: Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token into play. 4G: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.If possible, I think we should avoid exact duplication of any of the above in Thriceborn. This leads me to think we should design the Guildmages collectively as a true cycle of 10, to ensure we have a lot of different abilities out there. A brain dump of ideas (some of which may be rather similar to the Alara Battlemages, haven't looked at them in detail yet; and several of which appear in two colours): 1W: Target creature gains vigilance until end of turn. 1W: Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn. 2W: Untap target creature you control and remove it from combat. 2W: The next time this turn target player would flip a coin, instead he or she flips two coins and ignores one. 3W: Target creature gains lifelink until end of turn. 3W: Target creature gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn. 4W: Target player sacrifices an attacking creature. 1U: Target creature gains flying until end of turn. 1U: Untap target creature. 2U: Counter target triggered ability. (Mana abilities can't be countered.) 2U: Counter target activated ability. (Mana abilities can't be countered.) RAVNICA DID THIS 2U: Copy target activated ability. You may choose new targets for the copy. 2U: Target player scries 2. 2U: Target creature gains all abilities of target creature until end of turn. 3U: Return target creature to its owner's hand. 4U: Counter target instant or sorcery spell. B: Remove target card in a graveyard from the game. 1B: Target creature gains deathtouch until end of turn. 2B: Target creature gains fear until end of turn. 2B: Target creature loses all abilities until end of turn. 2B: Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn. 3B: Target creature becomes 0/2 until end of turn. 3B: Target creature attacks this turn if able. 4B: Target creature becomes 0/2 and loses all abilities until end of turn. 1R: Target creature gains "R: This creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn." until end of turn. 2R: Copy target triggered ability. You may choose new targets for the copy. 2R: Copy target activated ability. You may choose new targets for the copy. 2R: Target player shuffles his or her library. 3R, Sacrifice a land: Deal 2 damage to target creature. 3R: Target creature attacks this turn if able. 3R: The next time this turn target player would choose from two choices, he or she flips a coin to decide. 4R: Target creature gains double strike until end of turn. 4R: Copy target instant or sorcery spell. 1G: Target creature gains reach until end of turn. 1G: Target creature gains "G: Regenerate this creature." until end of turn. 1G: Target creature gains trample until end of turn. 2G: Target creature loses all abilities until end of turn. 3G: Target creature blocks this turn if able. 3G: Target player puts a creature card from his or her hand into play. DK wrote: This is a fairly mundane question compared to your thoughts below, but is the power and toughness fixed at 3/3? That seems higher than any non-legendary creature of archetype "spellcaster" that I can think of. You may be right, it's a bit beefy. Here are some possible justifications, or at least observations. (I'm happy to accept group design on these!) If you look specifically at cards with 'Guildmage' in the name, there are 15, five from Mirage, and ten from Ravnica. The Mirage guildmages are all 1/1, cost 1 mana, and have two tap abilities costing 1 in the allied colours. E.g: R 1/1 Creature - Human Wizard "Armorer Guildmage" Common B, T: Target creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn. G, T: Target creature gets +0/+1 until end of turn.The Ravnica guildmages are all 2/2, cost 2 (hybrid) mana, and have two abilities in those two colours with the same converted costs and don't tap. E.g: (R/G)(R/G) 2/2 Creature - Human Shaman "Gruul Guildmage" Uncommon 3R, Sacrifice a land: CARDNAME deals 2 damage to target player. 3G: Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.To take this progression one step further, DMc suggested making them 3/3, using a mixture of hybrid mana to cast. This means they need at least two colours to cast. The fact you also get three abilities may make these overpowered, so maybe they should be rare? This would fit the progression. It could also fit the progression to require three different kinds of mana, although that might make them too hard to draft or play. E.g: UBR 3/3 "Ikol Guildmage" Rare 3U: ... 3B: ... 3R: ...I'd appreciate designing a cycle in the open, I think that'd be neat. As long as there's some consistency between guilds, then no one 'guildmage' will be too broken. Of course, maybe we shouldn't feel constrained to call these things 'Guildmages', or 'Battlemages', or try to fit in with what has gone before at all. At 3/3 I still think they are not an instant win-the-game kind of card, and also given our history with Inventica I think there'll be plenty of removal about and these guys will be obvious targets, so I don't think the pow/tgh is a big issue. Still, a third turn 3/3 creature (second turn if playing green), which can pump itself in some way could put very early pressure on... But then look at Gruul Guildmage, it can attack as a 4/4 on turn 3 if you drop a Llanowar on turn 1. Overpowered? Or just doing what green/red should be doing? Personally I think the "must use two of these three colours" aspect of these cards makes Thriceborn interesting and these proposed guildmages playable and draftable (you may only be able to play 2 of the 3 abilities if you're not exactly in that guild, but at least you get 2). I think if we make them gold cards, it pushes their time-to-play back from turn 3 to maybe turn 5 or 6 in practice, and means they'll matter in fewer games. Yeah, they're beefy as far as mages go, but I think the removal in the set will compensate. I think the way to get a successful invented draft is mostly just to let people do what they want. A cycle of 10, however, appeals to the "group designer" in me, mostly because Ravnica's guildmages were such a neat cycle, but also because each would hint at what that guild is all about without really giving it away, and also because designing in the open means we avoid duplication and gain variety. I don't want to see six of the ten guildmages all having "2R: Deal 2 damage to target creature." SI wrote: I wouldn't want Guildmages to be rare - thematically they're supposed to be the magical workhorses of the guilds, they should be fairly easy to come by rather than unique characters. A 3/3 for 3 mana is excellent value, 3 colours to cast or not. Still, the original guildmages at 2/2 for 2 hybrid mana were even better value if anything. Although in some ways, having a whole lot of cheap 2/2s around (and I guess it's only 'cheap' for some colours) won't break the format in a way that cheap 3/3s possibly might. I'd say it makes sense for them to be either 3/3 or 2/2. If they were 2/2 we'd just have to give them some decent abilities is all. Which is probably what I'd rather do. DMM wrote: I'd rather see them at 2/2 with good/usable abilities, than 3/3 with expensive/narrow abilities. Could also go for 2/3 as a middle ground on the stats. Given they're mages, I don't think it makes sense for them to be beefy. As DMc pointed out earlier, the spread of hybrid mana means they cost at least 2 of the 3 colours. While the ones in Ravnica could be cast for monocolour, you'd only have access to half their abilities. Here you _must_ have at least two colours, and you'll get access to at least two of the three abilities. Whether that justifies 3/3 or not, I don't know. DMc wrote: We could loosen the cycle a bit and say that their total P/T is 5. That gives everyone a bit of flexibility to balance them according to the abilities, whether you want them to be vulnerable to ping/Shock/Bolt, whether they're also useful to attack or defend, and the guild flavour (black/red would probably go for 4/1 while blue would get 1/4 or 0/5). I'm in favour of any of these measures for game-play reasons, aside from a flavour reason: Thriceborn, a set of 'threes': 3-colour guilds, guildmages of 3 colours, costing 3, having 3 abilities... being 3/3.
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